Angel (the series)

[beautifulghost]

because tracy asked for it

[Trathena]

Thank you, BG! OK, yoinked from the Buffy thread:

As for Angel. I loved the first 3 seasons. But I really, really, really hate what they did to Cordelia...she was a veteran character. I know Charisma got pregnant, but they could have brought her out of her coma and put her back on the show instead of having her die. The show needed another female presence, especially after Fred died. They didn't do her justice. She wasn't even herself for the entire 4th season, then she died.

You do have a point here. I was disappointed to see her go too.

I guess I should explain, I watched Angel in reruns. So I knew that she'd gotten pregnant, and I just kind of assumed she'd be leaving, so it wasn't a huge disappointment.

And maybe it's weird, but I didn't miss a "female presence." The main focus of the show had always been Angel and Wesley. Better a kick-ass all-male cast, than second-rate token women, like, say, Kennedy and all the stupid "potentials." But I do agree that Cordelia was missed.

I didn't like Connor. Connor was the equivalent of Dawn for me, lol. Brat!

Oh my God, I loved Connor from the very beginning. I loved the "son" story line. The "you'll devour your son" story. I think I'd always enjoyed those two female vampires (please forgive me that I can't ever remember names; I've only seen these shows once), and when Connor grew up and came back so angry and full of pain, it warmed my angsty, emo heart. Unlike Dawn, and her pampered, privileged, bratty bullshit, Connor had legitimate reasons for hating on Angel so badly.

It's kind of like Joss was saying, "Hey, crappy Buffy writers, here's how you write a troubled, fucked-up teen." Connor was the anti-Dawn in that he had reason to be a brat. And the actor that played him was great (to be fair, so was the actress who played Dawn). He was so full of pain, he was never going to get over it because his mind wouldn't allow it. Angel was amazing when he gave him away, and Connor was so cool that last episode.

I didn't like how Fred and Gunn were oh so in love, and then Wesley took over at the end. I know he loved her from the start, but the transition was strange to me.

Because it was. Fred. I loved Fred, but she was kind of loopy from living in that Demon world for so long. I had to remind myself that she wasn't going to be rational or circumspect in any situation except survival. I think the way I saw it was that she was lusty over Gunn, but she had loved Wesley as a friend for a long time, and she was touched at how much he cared about her, so she naturally let it transition. I mean, really, what woman turns down what Wesley was offering? :-)

Also? Fred was so sweet and engaging to me that it was easy to like her.

I didn't like how they COMPLETELY changed Wesley from the dorky wannabe watcher, to the sullen damaged scruffy "sleeping with the enemy" guy he was at the end. I know people change, he went through shit...but damn. He wasn't even a shell of what he was.

OK, I loved the change. haha! I love you, Sanzen!

Here's why I loved Wesley's change.  His dorky personality worked well on Buffy because he had Giles to play it off of. It was funny, and he wasn't a co-star on the show.

On Angel, he was a co-star and that shit would have gotten old for me because it would have been unrealistic. No one can be around the horror that these people experienced on a daily basis and not be changed. And he needed to fucking toughen up or Angel wouldn't have kept him around anyway. The fact that he did, greatly raised my liking of him.

Wesley's timid hesitations are what allowed Faith (how could we have not mentioned this amazing character?!) to escape. And it's what led to him being tortured by her. He changed after that, and who wouldn't? If he'd walked away from being tortured by Faith with no change of personality, it would have been unrealistic.

Wesley's mistake was why Angel's son was in a demon world, and that fucked him up royally. And he lost everything, both friendship and love, and became self-destructive. His hooking up with "the enemy" was surprising and disappointing, sure but it was understandable. He was no longer a "good guy" then, but he wasn't a "bad guy" either. Remember, he saved Angel, even though Angel had cut off ties. I love complex characters who aren't always easy to like or agree with. Nobody's one-dimensional.

Angel himself got corny (and very beefy) the last two seasons. Mainly the last season. I know he was working for a law firm, but the slick backed gelled hair and suits...lol.

lol! Well I have nothing to say here. I don't mind that David gained weight. And honestly, that stupid hair was the style of '90s, hip, urban, businessmen. Yes, it sucked. Also, his change in appearance is kind of a visual representation (metaphor?) of his disconnection from his true mission. Maybe.

They made him sign away the Shanshu thing? That killed me. When they figured it out in the earlier seasons, I thought that would be the whole basis for the show...that by the end he would have fulfilled it.

I've forgotten this! But you know, I remember thinking that this is how Joss writes. It's never going to be happy. It's never going to be OK for Angel. His destiny just isn't easy. I honestly think it's Spike who will get that reward. And it kind of makes sense in a Karmic way. Spike (what was his human name? Bryan?) was a decent person before he was a vampire. Ian wasn't.

The puppet episode? No! lol I know a lot of fans liked it, but I thought it was retarded. I thought there were too many filler episodes.

I dreaded that episode, but ended up liking it. The actors did a good job with the voice overs.

I HATED the Jasmine arc.

This is that goddess, who everyone worshiped? I loved that story! It broke my heart, because Connor thought he'd found a lifeline, you know? And he was so hurt to discover he hadn't, but he still did what was right. And when Jasmine told Angel that his mission was useless, that was a surprise to me and kind of set us up for the ambiguous series ending. And I loved how she kept insisting that she was the only answer for our world. She was the only way evil would be defeated. It tied us back to that show when Angel was told that he was actually in hell. It was very philosophical, in the sense of: is this the only way for there to be no evil here? Only if we lose our free will? And would it be worth it? Angel very quickly said no, but is he right?

I HATED HATED Cordy sleeping with Connor. I know it wasn't really her, but....eeyuck. While Angel watched?

Aww, Angel didn't watch. He just caught them and then turned away. And it's not like Cordelia'd ever slept with Angel, so it wasn't an incest thing. And we were supposed to hate it. Connor sleeping with Cordelia was messed up. But Connor was messed up. Cordelia was too.

I did like Illyria. I thought she was cool.

She was kick ass, and showed a good range for the actress.

You know who I loved? That Demon in the first season. That poor actor! I loved him on Rosanne too. What a waste of talent!

You know who else I loved? Loren. My God he was fucking fabulous.

Whew! Like I said, I just really have nothing bad to say about this show. I never buy TV shows on DVD, but I will one day get this one. And watch it all over again.

[Trathena]

Man, I sure hope I'm not dominating this conversation.

hated the Jasmine arch as well except for the fact that Wesley became a badass motherfucker and did a complete 180 from what he started out as, mini Giles. love, love, love him like that.

[roo voice]Me too, me too, me too![/roo voice]

Illyria was a badass too, didn't really like the Gunn and Fred relationship, she was meant for Wesley and everyone knew it.

I liked Gunn, and didn't want his heart broken, but yeah, Fred belonged with Wesley.

One thing about Angel is he always had really cool living areas, just something i've noticed.

Heh. My spouse noticed that too, and pointed it out often. He was all about the art and set direction on Angel. :-)

Would've like to have seen more Nina/Angel action i think that was a neat relationship choice Vampire with a Werewolf.

I vaguely remember that. Not a lot of chemistry between those two, if I recall.

.....and i'm blanking, i'm up far too late ranting about the
Buffyverse....such is life i suppose...

Fine way to spend your time, imo. ;-)

[Sanzen]

Sigh...hahaha. Thinking something up!

PS: http://www.amazon.com/Angel-Seasons-1-5-..._1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1222674404&sr=8-1

I really think you should invest in that! You seem to love Angel so much...and it's a really good buy. If you bought all those seasons separately it would cost you over $200.

I bought it earlier this year, it was cheaper...so I guess they've raised the price...but I still see some other sellers selling for a good price.

You'd love it.

They have one for Buffy too. "The Chosen Collection"

[Trathena]

Oh wow, thank you so much for this information.

Please let this stay until next payday...

[beautifulghost]

hope you don't feel like i'm picking on you, i just have some different takes on this stuff.

And maybe it's weird, but I didn't miss a "female presence." The main focus of the show had always been Angel and Wesley. Better a kick-ass all-male cast, than second-rate token women, like, say, Kennedy and all the stupid "potentials." But I do agree that Cordelia was missed.

not really, Cordy was there from ep. 1 of Buffy AND ep. 1 of Angel, the show was designed to have Angel find his purpose and for Cordy to be what keeps him grounded to humanity. It was a mistake to treat her so shittly at the end.

I think I'd always enjoyed those two female vampires

Darla and Drusilla, i was always a Darla fan, Juile Benz was awesome and hott! Drusilla was fun sometimes, but could get on my nerves easily.

Unlike Dawn, and her pampered, privileged, bratty bullshit, Connor had legitimate reasons for hating on Angel so badly.

I think Dawn had her legitimate reasons for being like she was as well, she wasn't human always, so like Anya she's figuring stuff out all the time, she's basically a baby in a 16/17 year old girls body. Her life previous to season 5 didn't really exist, since those were created by the monks and implanted into the world via magicks, so i'd be a unsure of who i was, what i was, what my life means to the NTH degree as well.

OK, I loved the change. haha! I love you, Sanzen!

Here's why I loved Wesley's change.  His dorky personality worked well on Buffy because he had Giles to play it off of. It was funny, and he wasn't a co-star on the show.

On Angel, he was a co-star and that shit would have gotten old for me because it would have been unrealistic. No one can be around the horror that these people experienced on a daily basis and not be changed. And he needed to fucking toughen up or Angel wouldn't have kept him around anyway. The fact that he did, greatly raised my liking of him.

Wesley's timid hesitations are what allowed Faith (how could we have not mentioned this amazing character?!) to escape. And it's what led to him being tortured by her. He changed after that, and who wouldn't? If he'd walked away from being tortured by Faith with no change of personality, it would have been unrealistic.

Wesley's mistake was why Angel's son was in a demon world, and that fucked him up royally. And he lost everything, both friendship and love, and became self-destructive. His hooking up with "the enemy" was surprising and disappointing, sure but it was understandable. He was no longer a "good guy" then, but he wasn't a "bad guy" either. Remember, he saved Angel, even though Angel had cut off ties. I love complex characters who aren't always easy to like or agree with. Nobody's one-dimensional.

well put!

I've forgotten this! But you know, I remember thinking that this is how Joss writes. It's never going to be happy. It's never going to be OK for Angel. His destiny just isn't easy. I honestly think it's Spike who will get that reward. And it kind of makes sense in a Karmic way. Spike (what was his human name? Bryan?) was a decent person before he was a vampire. Ian wasn't.

Spike's name was William (the bloody) and Angel's was Liam (shortened Irish form of William) I don't know that Liam(Angel) was a bad guy, just irresponsible, he was a typical college kid in his day, getting drunk and fucking all the time, not wanting to get a job and start an adult life.
(what better way to be young and irresponsible forever than to be a vampire) and Spike(William) wasn't nessecarily a good guy just because he wrote poetry and followed Cicilly around breaking social rules of engagement (class structure) he was all too eager to follow Drusilla and cause havok around England....and i think that whole Shanshu thing is BS, the point of Angel is you make your own destiny, prophecy's can be wrong, you have to be true to yourself no matter what.

And it's not like Cordelia'd ever slept with Angel, so it wasn't an incest thing.

not true. The episode with the ballet they were possessed by emotional spirits and fucked.

You know who else I loved? Loren. My God he was fucking fabulous.

Lorne was alright, i like him more as the show grew on and the last episode was heartbreaking for him.

[Trathena]

hope you don't feel like i'm picking on you, i just have some different takes on this stuff.

I haven't even read this yet, but I've got to say this. No way, never, ever will I think you're picking on me just because you disagree. I'm the one who began the discussion on different takes on the show, and look how much I've learned already from Sanzen!

Never feel weird about debating stuff with me, BG. I'm made of tougher stuff. Maybe it's the "masculine" part of my bi side! :-)

[Sanzen]

And maybe it's weird, but I didn't miss a "female presence." The main focus of the show had always been Angel and Wesley. Better a kick-ass all-male cast, than second-rate token women, like, say, Kennedy and all the stupid "potentials." But I do agree that Cordelia was missed.

I think the three of them made a trio. Originally it was just the three of them on the show...and even before Wesley was Doyle (I was sooo sad he died, I cried during that episode..and how sad that the actor actually did die?). But I think she was just as essential as Wesley. They put in Eve? I wanted to rip her face off. Ugh.

Oh my God, I loved Connor from the very beginning. I loved the "son" story line. The "you'll devour your son" story. I think I'd always enjoyed those two female vampires (please forgive me that I can't ever remember names; I've only seen these shows once), and when Connor grew up and came back so angry and full of pain, it warmed my angsty, emo heart. Unlike Dawn, and her pampered, privileged, bratty bullshit, Connor had legitimate reasons for hating on Angel so badly.

It's kind of like Joss was saying, "Hey, crappy Buffy writers, here's how you write a troubled, fucked-up teen." Connor was the anti-Dawn in that he had reason to be a brat. And the actor that played him was great (to be fair, so was the actress who played Dawn). He was so full of pain, he was never going to get over it because his mind wouldn't allow it. Angel was amazing when he gave him away, and Connor was so cool that last episode.

“The father will kill the son?” I didn’t mind that arc. I guess that’s when Wesley took a turn to the dark side. Lol Whose side were you on?

I could see it from both perspectives. He was right to want to protect Connor, but if he had mentioned it to any of them…even if he didn’t tell Angel, but if he had told any of the other team, it would have made a big big difference in the way things ended up.

So I get why they were estranged. How about that scene where Angel attacks Wesley in the hospital? That was crazy! YOU’RE A DEAD MAN, PRICE! DEAD!!!!!!!

But I guess, as it was revealed to us later on…everything that happened was predestined, lol.

As far as Connor, I understood why he was so torn when they first introduced him, but after awhile, I felt he should have just come to terms with his situation.

I hated how he was jealous of Angel’s relationship with Cordelia. I mean, he was allowed to be attracted to her, but he should have been able to think, “Hmm okay, last week she was changing my diapers and feeding me bottles with Angel (remember that scene with Angel and Cordelia sleeping on the bed with Connor in the middle, while she fed him from the bottle?) and she has known Angel for years, maybe I should tone it down a notch.”

He was old enough to rationalize the situation. If he was 12, okay.

I hated how in the 4th season..even though he saw Jasmine’s true face, he still kept up the charade for so long. I know he eventually was the one to kill her, but still.

OK, I loved the change. haha! I love you, Sanzen!

Here's why I loved Wesley's change. His dorky personality worked well on Buffy because he had Giles to play it off of. It was funny, and he wasn't a co-star on the show.

On Angel, he was a co-star and that shit would have gotten old for me because it would have been unrealistic. No one can be around the horror that these people experienced on a daily basis and not be changed. And he needed to fucking toughen up or Angel wouldn't have kept him around anyway. The fact that he did, greatly raised my liking of him.

Wesley's timid hesitations are what allowed Faith (how could we have not mentioned this amazing character?!) to escape. And it's what led to him being tortured by her. He changed after that, and who wouldn't? If he'd walked away from being tortured by Faith with no change of personality, it would have been unrealistic.

Wesley's mistake was why Angel's son was in a demon world, and that fucked him up royally. And he lost everything, both friendship and love, and became self-destructive. His hooking up with "the enemy" was surprising and disappointing, sure but it was understandable. He was no longer a "good guy" then, but he wasn't a "bad guy" either. Remember, he saved Angel, even though Angel had cut off ties. I love complex characters who aren't always easy to like or agree with. Nobody's one-dimensional.

I agree he had to change. I hate shows where the characters never learn or have their experiences change them. But we all have our own set personalities, you know? Like back to Buffy…

Buffy had been through so much shit, but at her core she was the same. Still made silly puns, still treated her friends the same way. Willow? After almost destroying the world, she was still the same at her core. Spike? They matured, yeah. But it wasn’t like you couldn’t recognize them anymore. Wesley was literally a different character. I mean, they even took away his glasses for goodness sake! lol I never expected him to stay the sissy scared dork he was at the start...you'd expect that he'd change and gain some fighting skill. But it wasn't even a shell of what he was.

Like that scene...4th season when he and Faith had gone to that demon bar to find information on Angelus. They found that girl who'd been there for days. Faith asked her about Angelus and she said she didn't know..so Faith relented. Wesley then...what does he do again? I think he takes a knife and puts it through her hand or something to get her to talk. Even Faith is like, "wtf dude?"

One thing I do know is that a lot of different writers wrote the scripts for each character on Angel. Especially towards the end. So for instance, they’d have one writer write for Wesley in the season 2, and then in the next season…some writer that has never ever had any experience with writing this character would suddenly be writing his lines. I remember reading one of them say they had to basically guess on what this or that character would do.

Whereas with Buffy, the writers were all very familiar with each character..they knew them inside and out.

Dunno. :-p

lol! Well I have nothing to say here. I don't mind that David gained weight. And honestly, that stupid hair was the style of '90s, hip, urban, businessmen. Yes, it sucked. Also, his change in appearance is kind of a visual representation (metaphor?) of his disconnection from his true mission. Maybe.

Haha, I was kidding. I don’t mind that he gained either…just an observation! But I think you’re right. Especially like…Gunn? With his fake smarts and business attire? After he had learned that he basically killed Fred in getting his new lawyer abilities, he went back to talking and dressing like he used to.

I've forgotten this! But you know, I remember thinking that this is how Joss writes. It's never going to be happy. It's never going to be OK for Angel. His destiny just isn't easy. I honestly think it's Spike who will get that reward. And it kind of makes sense in a Karmic way. Spike (what was his human name? Bryan?) was a decent person before he was a vampire. Ian wasn't.

Remember that episode where Angel and Spike beat each other to bloody pulps trying to attain the prophecy? They got some fake message that if they drink from this magic cup, they’d get their humanity back. It was basically an episode where they got all their frustrations out…their old history, Buffy…everything. Spike won! Lol Angel was so torn up about that, despite that fact that it turned out to be…Mountain dew. Hahaha

This is that goddess, who everyone worshiped? I loved that story! It broke my heart, because Connor thought he'd found a lifeline, you know? And he was so hurt to discover he hadn't, but he still did what was right. And when Jasmine told Angel that his mission was useless, that was a surprise to me and kind of set us up for the ambiguous series ending. And I loved how she kept insisting that she was the only answer for our world. She was the only way evil would be defeated. It tied us back to that show when Angel was told that he was actually in hell. It was very philosophical, in the sense of: is this the only way for there to be no evil here? Only if we lose our free will? And would it be worth it? Angel very quickly said no, but is he right?

I like Gina Torres, the actress that played Jasmine. I think she’s gorgeous. But, I found myself wanting to stick something through her face the entire time she was on Angel. Hahah I was sooooooooo relieved when they finally did it!

She did leave me going “huh?” Because it was as if she was actually trying to do good for them when the entire time leading up to it, the audience was lead to believe she had some greater (terrible) plan up her sleeve. Kill (eat) a few hundred,to save the millions that will die. That was interesting. Even Angel was left questioning himself.

You know who I loved? That Demon in the first season. That poor actor! I loved him on Rosanne too. What a waste of talent!

You know who else I loved? Loren. My God he was fucking fabulous.

Yeah I loved Doyle…his accent was cute, and so was he. He was sooo much like Whistler. I don’t know if you remember, but Whistler is the guy that got Angel out of the sewers and got him to believe he had a greater purpose. It was as if they modeled Doyle’s character from that.

Lorne as good too. Imagine if he was in the musical episode of Buffy? Haha he would have fit right in.

[beautifulghost]

It was as if they modeled Doyle’s character from that

they did! the guy who played Whister couldn't commit to Angel so they wrote a similar character who would show Angel his path, Doyle.
I liked Doyle way better than Whister anyway.


yeah Gine Torres is WAY better on Firefly than she was on Angel.

[Sanzen]

Ahhh, cool. Doyle was a good choice. Whistler would have gotten annoying. If the actor hadn't died, I wonder if they would have found some way to put him back. Death is never an end in shows like these, lol.

[Pirate Girl]

You mean... Angel had a plot?

I only tuned in to perv all over David Boreanez. :drool:

[bxdash]

Hees some quick thoughts on Angel.

The Jasmine story arc felt like it was a good idea, but it was all convoluted because the Connor arc was just way too overarching. I felt fatigued by the time we were supposed to be worried about the world. The seasons jsut started to blend together, and the change ups were coming from all angles. Wesley's dark side (which I liked), Darla's pregnancy, connor the baby, connor the teenager, Holst and Justine's "relationship" (prtrayed prety horribly), Sahjhan, Cordelia nd Angel in love (really?!?!), Cordelia taken over by Jasmine, Gun and Fred breaking up, Cordelia and connor....

I mean... seriously.... It was fucking Dallas in Demonland

I personally LOVED season five. Alot of people hated the introduction of spike to the show, but I loved it. I found the whole rush hour'dness of it all pretty friggin funny. The episodes felt more standalone but touched on arcs as much as they needed to. There really isnt an episode I didnt like in Season five (with maybe the exception of "why we fight" The sub one was soo boring, I wish thy kept the prince of lies alive longer )) Cordy really had no place at W&H so I understand why she was written out. I really liked "Your Welcome" when she came back. That was great use of her character, because it acknowledges and emphasizes the change that the characters have gone through by using a character from the past that hasnt changed (it felt like old cordy).

Harmony was no replacement, but her character worked in context. They couldnt dumb cordy down to that level, but she didnt fit in the post Hyperion world (she started to not fit there as well)

I really feel cheated wit Illyria tho, that was the start of a truly cool character. I feel like they rushed alot of the end of the season after they found out they were being cancelled.

This is the same feeling I got with Buffy's last season, tho that show wasnt cancelled, I do feel liek there was a bit of an unsure approach to that season with regards on how to end it, which just got sped up once SMG and Joss decided to call it quits for sure.

Anywho. I feel the show got some new footing in season five that I really was enjoying, so I feel cheated that it was cancelled at that point.

[Trathena]

I didn't know the show was canceled (remember, I watched it all in reruns on another channel). Why in the world was it canceled? Not getting good ratings?

[Trathena]

not really, Cordy was there from ep. 1 of Buffy AND ep. 1 of Angel, the show was designed to have Angel find his purpose and for Cordy to be what keeps him grounded to humanity. It was a mistake to treat her so shittly at the end.

Hmm. I don't know about this. Sure she was there from the beginning, but so, so many shows centered around Angel (the main focus, of course) and Wesley. Cordy was amazing on Angel, to be sure. I liked her a hell of a lot better on Angel then I ever did on Buffy. But I just never thought she was a "center," I guess. The early episodes centered more on Doyle. Then when he left, Wesley arrived.

I don't know. I feel like I'm lessening Cordelia's importance, and that is not my intent at all.

Darla and Drusilla, i was always a Darla fan, Juile Benz was awesome and hott! Drusilla was fun sometimes, but could get on my nerves easily.

There's a scene on Buffy where Drusilla won me over forever. Spike has been terribly hurt (it's when he becomes crippled for awhile and confined to a wheelchair). Anyway, at the very end of the episode, we see Drusilla carrying an unconscious Spike out of the wreck of a church, and she looks at him and croons in that hysterical cockney (?) accent of hers, "Don't worry Spike (Spoik); I'll take care of you." And then she looks ahead and smiles. I loved her immediately. I don't know why, but that was just so sweet and funny and kind of "aww," all at the same time.

And we have different taste in women. I always found Drusilla much hotter than Darla. And when she turned Spike . . . damn . . . what a sexy scene.

I think Dawn had her legitimate reasons for being like she was as well, she wasn't human always, so like Anya she's figuring stuff out all the time, she's basically a baby in a 16/17 year old girls body.

Oh by god, where were you all when I was watching this show?? You could have given me so much more perspective. I may not ever love Dawn, but this is actually a good point that I knew but stopped taking into account, really. But I have to stubbornly say that Dawn--though she was "born" at the age of 16--had all the memories of someone who'd been around for all those years. So she really didn't have anything to "learn" like Anya did. Sure she felt "out of place," but hell every teenager goes through that.

(I know this belongs in the Buffy thread. sorry!)

well put!

yay!

Spike's name was William (the bloody) and Angel's was Liam (shortened Irish form of William) I don't know that Liam(Angel) was a bad guy, just irresponsible, he was a typical college kid in his day, getting drunk and fucking all the time, not wanting to get a job and start an adult life.
(what better way to be young and irresponsible forever than to be a vampire) and Spike(William) wasn't nessecarily a good guy just because he wrote poetry and followed Cicilly around breaking social rules of engagement (class structure) he was all too eager to follow Drusilla and cause havok around England....and i think that whole Shanshu thing is BS, the point of Angel is you make your own destiny, prophecy's can be wrong, you have to be true to yourself no matter what.

Thank you for the corrections on the names.

OK, two questions. I don't remember right now, but didn't Liam agree to be turned? And Spike didn't really know what was happening, right? So that there (if I'm remembering correctly) would factor into their destinies.

And, true, being a bad poet and thwarting social conventions doesn't make someone a "good" person (though I admit, I find both of these things endearing), but it makes him less likely to hurt people than Liam and his drunken, irresponsible, selfish ways. True Liam was young, and most of us do stupid things when we're young. And honestly, I'm not such a prude that I think fucking and drinking are immoral or bad. But I recall that the show seemed to allude to the fact that Liam wasn't a good person anyway, even before he was turned. The drinking and rutting were just examples, but he seemed to be an asshole anyway.

not true. The episode with the ballet they were possessed by emotional spirits and fucked.

But, but, but . . . they weren't dating right? And that wasn't them. They never got a relationship off the ground, right? They never actually slept together "for reals." There was that vision that they gave Angel so he'd turn into Angelus, I remember that.

I just need to watch these shows again, clearly.

Lorne was alright, i like him more as the show grew on and the last episode was heartbreaking for him.

Yes, he grew on me too. At first, I didn't think I was going to be able to stand the singing. But I loved him, and it infuriated me any time someone hurt him.

[Sanzen]

I didn't know the show was canceled (remember, I watched it all in reruns on another channel). Why in the world was it canceled? Not getting good ratings?

Yep. The fans put out petitions and everything. The WB didn't want it anymore, I guess. Ratings? Nothing on the WB got spectacular ratings. It's funny how that shitty show 7th Heaven was on for so long by comparision. Injustice!

At least they had a chance to "end" the show and it wasn't one of those that is just taken off air with no conclusion.

[Trathena]

And the ending was great. My spouse was pissed off though. He hated that it was a cliffhanger. But I told him that we know how it ends; we just didn't get to see it. Didn't help. He's still pissed off to this day. :-)

[beautifulghost]

this is from Wikipedia...
Angel's turning Born in 1727, Liam (no surname given) was born to a middle-class linen merchant in Galway, Ireland. By 1753, at the age of 26, he develops a taste for alcohol, women and sloth. Liam is a hedonist whose only real ambition lies in seeing the world. For a drunken layabout, this seems a laughable dream, until he is expelled from his house by his disapproving father. While engaging a drunken tavern brawl that evening, he catches the eye of Darla, a vampire disguised as a noblewoman. Upon being tossed out of the tavern for causing trouble, Liam is lured into an alley by Darla, who promises to show him the world, then transforms him into a vampire. The price is the loss of his human soul, along with his conscience, freeing Liam to act upon his darker impulses.


Spike's turning
After his romantic overtures were rejected by the aristocratic Cecily, a despondent William, while wandering the streets, bumped into Drusilla. She consoled, bit him, and forced him to drink from her thus transforming him into a vampire.

neither did so willingly, Angel was drunk and easily tricked by the hotness of Darla and Spike was out of sorts and turned by the nutcase Drusilla.


And i think Angel and Cordy had a relationship, even if it didn't have sex involved, cause then he'd have a moment of true happiness and that'd be bad.....

[Sanzen]

And the ending was great. My spouse was pissed off though. He hated that it was a cliffhanger. But I told him that we know how it ends; we just didn't get to see it. Didn't help. He's still pissed off to this day. :-)

Yeah, I assumed they all died. But..I went and read about the comics and..lol. They're not dead!

But, I'd imagine a lot of fans are happy with the show's ending and don't care for further reading.

[beautifulghost]

Don't know if you all heard but Andy Hallett, who played Lorne on Angel, died due to heart failure on March 29th at the young age of 33. My sympathies are with his parents and friends.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/arts/t...llett.html

[Trathena]

Yeah, I heard. How terribly sad. So young! I don't know anything about his personal life, so I don't know if this was sudden or if he'd known he had heart problems for awhile.

Very sad.